I am planning to order a concrete slab for a 13,000 pound motor home. It will be approximately 10 x 20 feet, perhaps a bit larger. One potential contractor is touting fibermesh concrete and says a pad just 4 inches thick would be adequate. Another says he would prefer six inches with wire reinforcement. Four inches seems a bit thin to me for a pad or a driveway which I might also consider.
Could you advise me as to the advantages and disadvantages of fiber reinforced concrete and what you think would be the best route for me to take in planning this slab (and driveway) bearing in mind the load it would be handling.
I agree with your observation that 4" fibermesh slab may not be enough for load carrying purpose. In my experience, even residential slabs that carry no load failed to perform with fibermesh when not jointed properly.
The main problems were excessive cracks that opened up to 1/2" wide due to shrinkage alone.
The key here, however, is the fact that neither fibermesh nor wiremesh are considered reinforcement for concrete. Both serve only to control and minimize shrinkage cracking of the fresh concrete.
Concrete with both will require contraction joints spaced about 10' apart in order to perform. The joints are actually more important than the mesh.
Another critical factor is the type of soil and base preparation since the slab is fully supported on the ground. When the base is compacted properly it will carry most of the load without stressing the slab. In that case a 4" slab may be adequate. In every case, however, a 6" slab will outperform a 4" slab
The last critical issue is curing of the concrete. 7 days wet curing will almost always result in crack free slab if the joints are provided and the design strength is achieved.
My recommendation:
Ask your contractor to show you a similar slab that he placed at least 6 months ago under similar conditions. If it looks good, and he will back his work, then you may go with it. If not, then I would stay with the traditional wire-mesh or rebars.
Always ensure that base compaction, joints, and curing are done correctly.
I got your name from a a section of an internet site called "Ask the Doctor." I had entered "concrete" in a search engine, came up with 260 entries, scrolled through them and found your site.
My thanks for your detailed answer. I was only able to find one other reference that touched on my information, a short explanation of fiber mesh concrete and what it should and should not be used for.
I think I am going to go with the 6" slab. I also asked a friend of mine who is a contractor but cannot do my job and he says that he has had some problems with fiber reinforced concrete. He says if it cracks there is nothing to hold it together and the pieces can often come loose and separate if there is any movement or shifting of the ground for any reason. He also says it is "hairy" because of the fibers. He was hesitant to recommend its use to me.
I live in South Florida, quite close to Jupiter and West Palm Beach in an unincorporated section of Palm Beach County. My ground is pure sandy soil.
We had concrete poured for the garage apron of our new house. No rebar was used. About 8 inches of compacted aggregate (I don't know if I am using the correct terminology) was used for the base. The concrete consisted of fibermesh. Joints were cut the same day that the concrete was poured by using a cutting device on a long pole. Within two days, a major crack off of the corner of the garage appeared. A week later, another crack appeared on an inside curve. Several other cracks have appeared since with spalling and pealing where the snow run off from the garage hit the ground and concrete pealing on the edges of the joints. There is fibrous debris on the surface of the concrete. From what have I read about concrete and fibermesh, if you overwork the concrete containing the fibermesh, more of the fibers will appear at the surface.
I appreciate any information you can give me.
Thank you, CL
Sorry it took me longer than usual.
I understand that we are talking about the apron/driveway leading to
the garage.
What you describe sounds wrong. There should not be any cracks in new
concrete like that.
Some possibilities:
1. The concrete is of inferior quality and failed to get the needed strength.
2. The joints were not cut properly. This is the most likely explanation since the concrete started cracking after 2 days.
3. Was it snowing/freezing at the time it was placed? Concrete needs
warmth to harden properly. At very low temperatures it may not gain
strength fast enough to prevent drying cracking.
4. I do not think that the surface fibers have anything to do with the cracks. Some are unavoidable.
5. Concrete spalling and peeling (what does that mean?) sounds bad. New concrete should not do that. It may be a result of early freezing.
I suggest you try to get the builder to replace the slab. You may want to contact Fibermesh and tell them the story. They are very sensitive to problems and may help resolve it.
If all else fails you may want to consult an attorney - but I would do anything to avoid that including replacing the slab and trying to get the builder to pay part of the cost. Litigation is a lose-lose situation.
Hope that helped a little. If you want me to look at additional information you are welcome to send it to me.
I am not familiar with this method. However, it does not seem to have a potential to harm the concrete. I would suggest that you try on a small section first to see if it works as expected.
Why don't you ask the contractor who poured the concrete?
I have a 15 year old exposed aggregate driveway that I need to cut a section out to lay a 3 inch pipe under the driveway. Can the section cut out be re-poured to look like the weathered remainder of the driveway?
Thanks.
Probably not. It is hard enough to match appearance of concrete poured on two days. Another problem to consider is that the new concrete will shrink when it dries, and will not bond securely to the old one.
Would it be possible to insert the pipe under the driveway? There are companies that can "jack" it through, or use water blast, or dig...
The alternative which I would prefer is to use that as an architectural feature. Use a concrete cutting saw to create a neat straight line and fill it with a different material. A good option will be red brick set in a concrete bed.
I have checked with local contractors about boring under the
driveway, but the minimum cost is $1000 because we live in an area that
is mainly rock.
You did give me another idea. Is there a problem with making the cut at
the expansion joint? I was thinking if I cut the expansion joint and
take a 1.5-2 inch section out that I could dig out enough to get the
pipe under and fill back with another material as you suggested. In
doing this would I create a problem with the driveway heaving or
something else?
Thanks for the information.
ELD
There should not be a heave problem unless you undermine the adjacent section. If it did not heave in 15 years it must be well compacted and stable. Cutting at the joint is the preferred location since only one cut is required.
I would probably go with a 4" cut and a brick strip. Using concrete to fill is possible, but you must realize that it will not bond securely to the cut edges. Besides, you need to keep a joint.
There are four basic methods for doing that, and experience is important in order to get the desired uniform result.
1. Use surface retarders. These admixtures are sprayed on the finished surface and penetrate only the very top layer of cement. They will prevent this layer from hardening. A few hours later - after the rest of the concrete hardened enough - you can come back with a broom and/or hose to expose the aggregates.
2. Abrasive materials. Use steel brushes (or similar) to remove the cement cover before it hardens too much, but after it gained enough strength so that the work will not dislodge the aggregates. Choosing the right time can be tricky.
3. Acid wash. Use muriatic or phosphoric acid to dissolve the cement on the surface. Use diluted acid and practice on scrapes. This can be done after a few days. Acid wash may also be used to finish concrete done in one of the previous methods. Be careful not to overdo it and damage the deeper concrete and/or the aggregates.
4. Water blast. Get high pressure water blasting equipment. Use it after the concrete is strong enough (12 to 24 hours) so the water does not blast the aggregate out. Depending on the type of concrete and temperature, you may have to wait a few days.
Note: If you want to use fancy (expensive) aggregate, it is not necessary to use it for everything. Most contractors will use regular concrete, and spray the finish aggregate on the surface. They will tap it into the concrete surface to achieve a flat finish, and use one of the above methods to expose it later.
Be aware that if you never did that before it is possible (likely) that your first try will be less than perfect. Get professional help if you can
Good luck
Hamilton, USA
We've just had a pool installation completed which included a stamped concrete deck and patio surrounding the pool. We chose a pattern known as ashler slate. There are a number of what I would call surface defects in the concrete. Mostly on the edge of the individual slates there are spots in which the concrete is not smooth. It appears grainy and slightly depressed below the finished surface. I asked the mason if the forms were kept clean as I thought the problem might have been caused by concrete on the form pushing into the surface. The mason said no. It is caused by tension on the surface of the concrete when they tamp down on it. He indicates this is normal for stamped concrete and won't affect the integrity of the concrete. I don't know much about concrete, and I also don't want to be unreasonable, but his explanation sounds a little too convenient. I would appreciate any advice you could give.
Thank You, C.L.
Charles,
It is not easy to visualize the problem from your description, so do not expect too much from my answer.
It is not clear to me what size and depth are these depressions. Does it look like something broke off (spalled) or what you see is the surface as left by the mason?
His explanation does not make much scientific sense, but that may be because he does not know the correct terms. It sounds to me like some concrete stuck to the forms when they lifted them. The stress he is referring to may be the stress when the 'skin' of the concrete stretches and breaks. This would leave a rough surface inside a depression.
I tend to agree that there is no danger to the integrity. If the concrete is over 14 days old you should take a pocket knife or sharp screw driver and try to scratch the surface of the concrete (do not push hard). It is OK to see a lighter color scratch, but no material should come off. Surface dusting is a sign of finishing problem.
Is the concrete colored? If yes, is there a difference in color inside the depression?
Is that a visual problem? Seems to me that a slight irregularity will fit ok within the stamped texture (whatever ashler slate is...).
If you need more to make you feel secure go look at some of his other stamped concrete (you did that before you hired him, right?). If this is a common thing then you may accept the explanation and enjoy the pool...
San Jose, US
I have an outdoor swimming pool and would like to get rid of the pool and fill it with concrete so it would look the same as the yard. Any suggestions on how I can go about doing this?
Thanks and Have a Great Day
A.L.
Are you sure you want to fill it with concrete? Why not fill it with soil and plant some nice plants/grass/trees?
Filling a swimming pool with concrete will take a LOT of concrete, be expensive, and you will end-up with a huge piece of very hard rock in the middle of your yard. Consider the resale value problem you will have later...
My recommendation would be to break the pool up and fill the hole with good soil.
If that sounds too expensive you may elect to leave the pool alone and just fill it.
If you want to leave the pool deck and extend it over the pool you should do it very carefully. I still suggest you fill it with soil, but this soil must be compacted very well before you place any concrete. That means that you add the soil in thin layers (a few inches at a time) and spend a lot of time and energy compacting it. Once you are done, leave it standing for a year (through a winter and summer) to give it a chance to settle completely.
If you don't do that, the weight of the concrete will compress the soil and the deck will shift and crack.
each city has its own rules. Simply call the building department and ask.
I don't see any reason why there should be any forms/permits required for landscaping.
I am doing a science fair project that uses recycled materials as the aggregate for a concrete mix. The materials are crushed glass, stripped plastic, and bottom ash from a coal fired power plant. I have mixed concrete and poured 6" dia. by 12" tall test cylinders. They were taken to a test facility and broken after 7 days. A question I have is what should a mix break at on 7 days. I know that they reach the rated strength at 28 days, but I don't know what they should test at on the 7 day break.
Any charts or graphs would be most grateful. Any information you may have on the use of recycled materials in concrete will be of great help. Thank you for your time and considerations.
As a rough rule of thumb, normal Portland cement concrete reaches about 70% of 28 day strength after 7 days. However, this ratio depends a lot on the type of cement used (some react faster), on the curing conditions (hot and humid will be faster), on the amount and quality of the ash (some fly ash will react but take longer to gain strength), etc.
I have seen ratios of between 50% to almost 90% in 7 days tests.
As for sources for graphs and charts - if you have access to an engineering library (at some college) I would look for the "Concrete Manual" by the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation, or for any text book on concrete.
I don't have anything ready to upload into the Web at this time. If I get some I will send you a copy.
A good source for information on recycled concrete would be the ACI special publications. Again, a college library is the best source unless you live next to ACI headquarters. ACI have their own Web Site which may help you locate these publications. For its address check links from my page.
Where are you located? What sources for information do you have nearby? If you have the time, I can mail you copies of some graphs.
I am currently a senior Civil Engineering student at the [ ] School of Engineering in New York City. Our Senior Experimental Project this semester involves the design, mixing, and testing of common household glass-concrete samples. While we are aware that such testing has been performed in the past, we are currently finding difficulty in obtaining information regarding this topic.
If you have any information which you would deem useful to our project I would greatly appreciate if you could let us know. My email address here at the [ ] is [ ]. Thank you.
I am sorry, but I don't have anything on the subject available now. A good source may be the magazine "Concrete Construction". They used to have articles on any popular subject and they may be reached through the Internet. You may also try the ACI web site.
Since this seems to be a popular subject in schools (you are the second one this week) I will try to find out more in the next few weeks.
My husband and I are considering putting in a carpet in our basement in order to finish off the room as a playroom for our kids. I don't know whether or not we should put in a small subfloor first before the pad and carpet or whether we can put the pad and carpet directly onto the concrete. It is fairly dry down there and in the 3 years we have owned it we only had 1 small spot of moisture near the bulkhead after days of driving rain. We do run a dehumidifier down there all summer. I am concerned about mold growth in a basement though, and since this is to be used by kids, I don't know what the current trend is to prevent that. Are there vapor barriers that are used now for this purpose? Any advice you can offer is kindly appreciated.
Framingham, USA
I would suggest you start by performing a very simple test.
Take a sheet of plastic (shopping bag without holes will be fine)
about 1x1ft (or larger). Clear an area of the slab from all debris and
paint/stucco/etc. Using a "duct tape" secure the plastic to the floor
around its edges. The idea is to seal it in a way that water vapor will
not be able to escape from under the plastic.
Leave the plastic for at least 2-3 days and watch for condensation. A
small amount is expected, but if you can actually see drops of water you
will know that there is a significant amount of moisture coming through.
Make sure that the temperature and humidity in the room during the test
are similar to what will be the condition when in use. More moisture
will come through when the air is drier and warmer.
Based on the wet spot you found I would expect to see significant
condensation. Make sure you test a few locations including the area
where the wet spot was.
If that is the case then you have a problem. Carpets and vinyl floors
should not be installed when the "vapor transmission" exceeds a standard
value (3 lbs for 1000 sq.ft. in 68 hrs) in the standard "moisture dome"
test (which is a more complex and accurate version of the test above).
Any installer that does not test is failing to meet the standard
requirements by the manufacturer and there is a good chance that the
glue will fail and mold will develop.
If you have excessive amount of moisture coming through then the best
option will be to leave the concrete uncovered or use concrete/ceramic
tiles without a moisture barrier. These tiles "breath" and will allow
the moisture to escape into the air where the humidifier will take care
of it. Carpets and vinyl will trap the water and create a mold hazard.
There are some products that claim to seal the concrete from the inside.
A few (very few) actually seal most of it if applied professionally, but
the moisture pressure from outside is high enough to drive it through
most sealants. It will be expensive to apply and I doubt that it will be
covered by any warranty. I suggest you look for professional installers
and ask for their opinion. Search the Internet for a product called
"Xypex" and I am sure you can find installers in your area.
Hope this helps. Feel free to ask again if something is unclear. Let me
know what happened with the plastic test.
Good luck
We had a new driveway put in a year ago. It is 33' x 18' edged with 4" granite slabs. Within the drive are three circles filled with circular patterns of brick pavers. The circles are 5', 7', and 12' in diameter. The space between circles is 4'. The 5' circle is 13" from the back edge and 18" from the side. The 12' circle at the other end is 34" and 35" from the sides. The 7' circle in the middle is well inside the drive. The rest of the drive is poured concrete aggregate on a bed of packed sand/clay (I'm not sure of this material) overlaid with wire mesh. The plan was to have no expansion joints. However, when poured, there wasn't enough concrete and about 1/4 of the area had to be poured the next day. This section was separated by joints. The aggregate is a variety of 1/2" stones. The drive looks terrible. Stones started breaking free almost immediately. There is white scaling, the surface is uneven and collects water. Hairline cracks have developed between the circles and from one circle to the side. To my knowledge there was no acid or sealant used. We are very disappointed in the result. We realized it was a tricky job but still expected a very sharp result. What went wrong?
ran out of concrete and ended up needing a second pouring for about 1/4 and there he put in driveway. two circles closest to the sides the distances are 13", 18", 34", and 35". between
Cambridge, MA
Some questions:
Was that an "exposed aggregate" concrete? Why are you mentioning acid? How was it finished?
s there a difference between the two sections? What is "white scaling"? Was the stone done before or after the concrete?
f I got the geometry correctly, you have a 25x18 section that was poured without joints, and round areas of stone in the middle. A section this big should have joints unless significant reinforcement is used to control cracking. At a minimum I would have put a joint at the center of the 18 ft side, and three joints in the other direction. Actually, I would have expected more than hairline cracks - but the stone circles may help by reducing the concrete area (and the potential shrinking) significantly.
You say that the wiremesh "overlaid" the clay. That wiremesh should be centered in the concrete in order to arrest cracks. Lying below it does no good.
In general, stones should not break - so something was done wrong. I would suspect that the finishing was done incorrectly but I need more information.